Never
It isn’t gonna happen
The enshittification would be too much, and people would gravitate twoards the more usable tech.
People liked Apple and Google because they offered simplified UX that still let people access what they wanted, as soon as people feel too restricted they will stop using the tech.
This trend is independent and unimpeded by the legality of the tech.
It will happen when the major companies produce some kind of magical formula that literally everyone wants and are willing to sacrifice freedoms just to have it.
THIS is the reason they are chasing AI so hard and trying to make it to AGI before anyone is ready or prepared. They want everyone to have their magical fairy whispering product placements in their ear and charming them into simulated relationships so that the users abandon all thought of having personal control and freedom to train the things themselves, to install their own upgrades, etc.
The next major “thing” we all carry is going to be some kind of AI that can see through your view of the environment and can whisper to you privately various simulated thoughts, observations and relevant info about the things around you. As well of course as “Hey look, Kohl’s is having a 35% off sale on jackets, didn’t you need one?”
This is their dream, this is why they have put so much into the tech. People are going to gobble it up if they can ever get there, and with that goes all semblance of autonomy, freedom or independant thought.
Fortunately, Microsoft is too incompetent to pull this off on Windows.
They tried. See the metro app push in Windows 8+. But it’s kind of incredible how much they bungled it; even now, it would be totally dysfunctional with Win32 apps locked down.
And if Windows doesn’t do it, hardware makers aren’t really interested in that sort of thing.
Stuff like SteamOS does worry me a tiny bit. It’s obviously fine now, but I can see a future where, say, Valve (or any hardware seller with some kind of successful storefront) starts to not like rising competition on their own stuff.
SteamOS
SteamDeck doesn’t even have secure boot in the BIOS lol
I mean we already have that with Nintendo, Xbox and PlayStation
And these devices are controlled both hardware and software by an oem.
PC’s are hardware and software agnostic. Some OEM’s have done weird stuff with the hardware and bios/uefi to prevent users from upgrading and don’t some things but as long as you can buy a motherboard, gpu, ram, and other parts is going to be tough to convince three manufacturers to prevent an end user from using it how they see fit.
Microsoft is incompetent, and Valve is concerning? Lol
Nah, PCs are easier to install anything we want. Corps trying to lock out Linux would be like shooting themselves in the foot.
Phones are what they would like to get a tighter leash on, because it has become a device that nearly everyone buys more than PCs due to them being more usable and cheaper, and thus a bigger revenue channel.
I mean they could always use VMs or docker vs locking the actual base level OS
You’re describing Secure Boot. It happened years ago.
And, btw, the Android thing also doesn’t affect anyone without gapps. Chill out.
And, btw, the Android thing also doesn’t affect anyone without gapps. Chill out.
so only 99% are affected, that really calms me down.
Many services that are connected to finance/payment require gapps, car sharing, banking etc.
you are right about secure boot, but this was rolled out with proper alternative routes from the beginning. i did not see anything like this for Android at this time
Don’t install gapps. And ffs don’t use banking on insecure devices anyway
If I don’t install gapps my banking apps don’t work.
Does the bank app do anything that the mobile bank website can’t? I’ve never felt the need to install an actual bank app. You can use micro g or sandbox gapps.
Some banks the website works only if you install some kernel modules. Worst than use the cellphone app.
Define insecure devices.
When I was tasked with buying laptops for a company, I made sure to test Linux compatibility on every machine. If the model didn’t support Linux, we didn’t buy it.
Most of the devs were windows users, but there were enough devs and sysadmins that preferred Linux that it just made more sense to only buy hardware that supports both windows and Linux. I’m sure a lot of tech companies have a similar policy (it’s one reason think pads are so ubiquitous)
Corporate pressure would never allow such lockdown in the market
There is no requirement for it, and can be disabled
Exactly.
I see Apple doing it, not because they are Apple but because they control the whole manufacturing process, so they wouldn’t need to negotiate with third parties. That’s what has happened in the mobile industry. In the PC side of things you would need to sit on a table: the CPU, OS, and probably GPU and MOBO manufacturers to negotiate, and knowing how greedy they all are, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. But hey, anything is possible in this dystopian society we live in.
It’s been tried a bit before, but didn’t get through. The current situation with secure boot is worrying, because we’re one manufacturer playing ball away from it to become a reality.
I’d like to say there’s strong incentive to not do that, but it seems that logic alone would not stop this kind of push. And weirdly enough, even financial risk might not be enough, as we’ve seen baffling decisions made these last few months.
The main saving graces is that there are more than two manufacturer for motherboard, and as far as I know, patent lockdown and secrecy isn’t as big on PC hardware than on mobile boards, so it might be easier to escape such lockdown. But fully locked down systems under external control is clearly where some people wants us to go.
Users are getting dumber by the day. The people arguing back to me about “this is a you problem” when I mention reasons why device ownership is important is way too fucking high.
This is why you gatekeep hobbies. Keep the dipshits out so they don’t become the masses that ruin what you enjoy.
Exactly, if I like something I try to keep it on the down low, or only spread it in circles where I know it will be similarly appreciated, the moment a majority of the people are into something, that thing will now get subjected to external influences that require it to be liked by everyone and most people are mediocre so the thing moves towards mediocrity
I have just one year before I pay off my phone and I want to get a degoogled phone. I wanted my current phone degoogled… but due to the breakage of my previous phone it was a bit of an emergency and I didn’t have time to do proper research.
I would say this is one of the things EU is doing quite a good job.
It would be difficult making Linux de facto illegal in EU. It could happen but most likely it won’t.
I have a feeling, that Windows 12 PCs will be just glorified smartphones with voice control as the default.
Good thing I transitioned to Linux mint (my first distro!) And I will never return to windows. I have some mild challenges in getting some games and programs to work. But I overcame some and I will overcome the others. I also welcome the challenges.
Bold of you to assume that they’ll let you to install Linux on your PC…
I would say if/when PCs move over to ARM than we very well may see the same issues mobile devices have. There is a severe lack of Linux compatibility due to proprietary drivers, sometimes no drivers at all, no software support, and no device trees.
there is another… but, it may be RISCy
Also ARM is way less standard. While UEFI does exist on ARM, most just use some custom bootloader. And let’s not forget how ARM is protecting its Mali Linux drivers.
I have the ubuntu 25 concept installed on my snapdragon HP Omnibook 14
Other than a few software hiccups you would expect of a “concept build” it works almost perfectly and is now my daily driver. Actually getting the OS on the machine was pretty easy too, it has something akin to a bios. the process isn’t all that different.
The more difficult bit was getting the drivers working after installing the OS. no all of them have been released under license yet so some of them you have to poach from the windows partition. also audio required some tweaking.
Well yes many arm PCs do work, im just saying eventually they will be locked down
Too late to do this for PCs. You already have Linux laptop providers and Linux distros supported by corporations. Most of the components have multiple providers. You will be able to source “unlocked” hardware from somewhere.
The problem with mobile is that the hardware is too complicated for open source projects to handle. Many have tried, all have failed. So far. Hopefully we will finally see something usable come out of projects like PinePhone and PostmarketOS.
all have failed
Here I sit, an eternal failure.
- posted from my Oneplus 6T on PostmarketOS
To be honest, I don’t have any hope. I just keep running. When I run out of places to hide, maybe I’ll give computers up and get into philosophy or something. If only 1M signatures carried the weight of $1M, we might stand a chance.
Where from here? Keep finding obscure ways to use computers freely, different chipsets, virtualization, remote access, whatever it takes. Fuck Microsoft, Google and Apple.
$1M carries the weight of about 1M signatures, which is to say… not much.
What are these Linux laptop providers going to sell if they can’t order anything from the factory that lets them change the software because reasons
Just updated my pinephone the other day. It’s not spectacular in terms of usability. It does the bare minimum at the bare minimum.
I’m saying that there’s enough laptop providers and enough different factories to maintain supply of unlocked hardware. You don’t have to worry about locked CPU/GPUs, only about locked bootloaders which have a lot of different providers. With mobiles it’s easier to lock because it’s all packed into SOCs and you don’t have as much choice for latest hardware.
What makes mobile hardware more complicated than desktop hardware?
It’s a long history lesson. But the gist is that IBM made an architecture that allowed for modular LEGO style construction of computers. They were assholes and tried to make it lock down by keeping software secret and proprietary, but it was so popular that everyone else copied it and IBM/PC clones were born. Then the architecture became the standard, and everyone could make components for a PC with (more or less) assurance that any component made would be compatible and fit into (almost) any other computer.
Phones, on the other hand were born out of the necessity of being the smallest and most portable device possible. This meant bespoke solutions. The people who were chasing that format chose an architecture, ARM, that at the time required everything to be on a single chip. Memory, storage, CPU, CMOS, everything has to be on the chip. Which means exchanging parts is not possible. System on chip became the smart phone standard. Now, technically ARM doesn’t have to always be SOC. But it means two things, first is that every phone model is an unique and bespoke production that will never exist again once out of print. Second, it is a Titanic task to reverse engineer certain parts of it, firmware for sensor input is always unique, for example.
This means that FOSS is at a disadvantage. To make free open software for a phone means that, either a manufacturer is magnanimous and gives you all the firmware, or after a major effort to reverse engineer lots of pieces of software, it will be useless for the next model of phone. You either make your own open standard phone, which is a several billion dollar r&d endeavor. Or you’re constantly shooting at a fast moving target.
No one has created an open standard that allows small component manufacturing of mutually interchangeable parts for phones. Risc-v is close but not yet terribly financially viable.
It’s not any one platform that is too complicated, it’s that none of it was standardized. So once you have support for one phone completely done, the next model is already released 6 months ago and you have to start almost from scratch again.
Pixel was one exception to this, because Google would release and document all the modifications needed to run Android. Unfortunately they stopped doing this as well.
Contrast this to the x86 PC and laptop market and everything basic, like how to discover hardware, how to boot is all a documented standard. Even though on PC, you still have to deal with drivers for specific hardware.
Another reason why PC is much easier for Linux is that much of the hardware is shared with servers and for servers, Linux is absolutely a first class operating system, which all but some extremely niche hardware manufacturers fully support.
You need way, way better sleep handling. To get decent battery life everything needs to be able to go to sleep really fast but also be able to listen for signals from specific devices like GSM modem and wake up immediately. Without it it’s not really usable. Desktop PCs didn’t have any sleep functionality for a very long time and even now they mostly just disable everything and wait for a button press. Sleep/wake-up cycle can last couple of seconds without issues.
Mobile hardware also has more devices. I don’t have GPS, GSM, accelerometer or finger print reader in my laptop. When Linux was developed they also didn’t have cameras or bluetooth. A lot of this additional devices are not easily available like PC parts and require closed source drivers and firmware.
To make a usable mobile phone you need to figure out all if it at once. You can’t really release a phone without GPS or GSM and expect people to use it as a daily driver. With PC you can live without the camera or build in WiFi. I remember using USB dongles for WiFi and simply not having a working camera in my Linux laptops and I was fine with it.
Has Fairphone failed in this regard, in your opinion?
Too late to do this for PCs.
let me tell you about this little thing called windows 11.
I know for a fact that this is exactly where compute is going, just look at the aggressive moves that MS has been making over the last 15-25 years.
it starts with requiring an always on connection, and ends with hardware lockout like Mac has.
sure Linux will be an option… but for how much longer? all the old devs are retiring and the new ones…god help us. they want to rewrite it like any greenhorn, and they want to use…rust??!
I give it 10-15 years before hardware locks out Linux, and Linux is dying.
I’m a Linux user btw, so don’t think I’m a MS or Mac fan.
Linux is dying
I definitely am not getting this impression, especially with the recent boost in popularity, but this isn’t my field of expertise. Any reading you can recommend to get an old man up to speed?
Most of servers run Linux, and servers are just computers.
https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/clouddc/1u/sys-611c-tn4r is not running anticheat required software, bank webapps and windows store could start requiring: https://insider-gaming.com/battlefield-6-secureboot-not-enabled-error/
Just to add on top of that I think Linux will be good as long as Torvalds is alive. After that who knows what would happen. They might add binaries to mainstream kernel that lock you out and who can stop them ? We are lucky we live in times where we have a choice.
They might add binaries to mainstream kernel that lock you out and who can stop them ?
Who are “they”?
It seams you don’t know how Linux kernel is maintained. Linus is simply releasing the most commonly used versions of it. Nothing stops you from choosing a different one. If someone takes over the main kernel and starts doing weird things distros will simply package another kernel by default.
It’s almost already like this. In my country every single bank reinvented the wheel by creating a single purpose app which does what aegis does (otp generation from a seed) but with some bits changed (one for example “encrypted” the seed with ROT13) and with draconian measures like bootloader must be locked, adb must be disabled, and are using literal exploits to see if you have “forbidden” directories on /sdcard like/sdcard/magisk even if no file access is granted
Which country?
it’s not almost worldwide? By reading all the forum posts with us nerds damning the bank app developers for the antiroot checks, it seems a widespread problem
Please expand
in order to login on the bank webapp, a token must be generated on a dedicated smartphone with all the google spyware installed, and the app that generates the token refuses to run if the bootloader is unlocked, or if the device is not “certified” by google
Wasn’t amd pluton or something going to do that?
I just bought a new and CPU and Chinese motherboard and I could still install Ubuntu without problems
Expect specialist “open” hardware capable of installing any software/OS to become increasingly expensive, while increasingly locked-down, mass-produced consumer hardware remains at current price. You only need to look at TVs for an example of this - try finding a recent non-smart TV at a reasonable price as the cheap models are all subsidised by the revenue from pushing ads into your face.
Microsoft is already starting to lay the groundwork with their CPU, SecureBoot, and TPM 2.0 requirements.
Apple has been doing this for a long time, though there are ways to get around it on MacOS, for now.
On PC, the answer is Linux. For mobile devices, things are looking more bleak.
Next phone I get I’ll get fairphone and check the market for an alternative OS at that time. This might be the push that the Linux phone community needs to make it proper and good.
We currently need a KDE phone that they sell where I can buy a KDE phone and support them that way.
The pieces are coming together for Linux notably:
- SPA support instead of apps.
- Waydroid
- Core components such as calling, sim card actions, recording, speakers can be provided by fairphone via drivers.
I’m getting pretty sick of Google and other corpos locking down Android so fuck them, third best phone OS will have to do and I’ll do banking in the mobile browser page.
The situation is actually quite awful. I remember when TPM was palladium and there were apocalyptic talks in tech conferences about it being the end of general purpose computers. The idea that your computer could veto what it was used for.
The backlash only set them back a few decades apparently. Everyone forgot and now it’s a literal requirement for the latest Windows and in two months they’ll stop supporting the old Windows…
Linux won’t be an option if the boot loader is locked. I think Linux is just about popular enough that options should remain but they might become reduced unless it becomes more popular than it currently is.
I’d imagine not every mobo manufacturer will play ball with whoever mandates a locked bootloader.
Right now, we have google and apple with a duopoly on mobile devices.
The grand majority of all laptops and desktop devices are using motherboards manufactured specifically for those devices (or device series). It’s not much of a stretch to imagine them adding restrictions to their already mature supply chain.
Linux is heavily used on servers. Losing server sector means a huge chunk of revenue.
Linux is servers.
Hell, VMware migrated to a Linux base a while back, and with their new exorbitant pricing, large environments are switching to things like Proxmox.
The next ten years, VMware will be second string virtualization, even in data centers.
I’m not sure what’s going to happen, but there was a “BIOS War” in the 80’s,when IBM wouldn’t release their BIOS code, so other devs reverse engineered it. No reason why that couldn’t happen again.
