An actual argument I recently saw:
Person B: “Any site which contains slurs against trans people in its sign up process is unreliable” (was referring to k!wifarms)
Person A: “Slurs aren’t considered bad in most countries”
Person B: “That doesn’t justify their usage. For example, conversion therapy isn’t considered bad or banned in most countries, that doesn’t mean conversion therapy is justified or good.”
Person A: “What are you talking about? Conversion therapy is banned in most countries”
Person B: “Shows a diagram showing that conversion therapy is only banned in a handful of countries”
Person A: “I mean in most civilized countries”
I’ve seen lots of other people refer to countries as civilized or uncivilized in similar contexts. Is this generally considered to be racist?
It can be argued that it’s racist because “civilized” means “western” or “western-influenced”, i.e. contrasts countries in Europe + North America + Australia + maybe some of Eastern Asia with countries in Africa or Southern Asia.
You are very close to figuring out some of the problems with “social justice” ideology.
Standing up for all “oppressed groups” is contradictory. For example, in western countries, LGBT people are an oppressed group, and so are Muslims, yet when the latter are in power, they treat the former very badly, so which side do you stand up for? Or try these: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/erbe/2008/11/07/blacks-are-more-socially-conservative-than-barack-obama https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/blacks-conservative-republicans-some-moral-issues.aspx
It also doesn’t help in conflicts such as Israel/Palestine (are Palestinians oppressed by Israel, so we stand up for them? are Israelis oppressed by the Muslim world, so we stand up for Israel?) or trans activists vs. trans-exclusionary feminists (are trans people an oppressed group whose rights we support? are women an oppressed group whose identity is being appropriated by trans women?). You can see it’s possible to argue nearly everything from the premise that we stand up for “oppressed groups”.
So I suggest people stop thinking in these terms at all and instead pick some other way of thinking, such as supporting a society in which anyone is allowed to live their life as long as they aren’t harming anyone else. Not saying this helps in the specific (somewhat silly) argument you are quoting.
This is nonsense. I can want Muslim people to have human rights without wanting to live in a Muslim theocracy. Just like I want Christian theocrats out of the US government, but I don’t want to murder Christians.
Exactly.
groups a, b, and c enjoy the same rights doesn’t change if group b wants to take those rights away from c, it is cool with a having them.
B still enjoys those rights and C still enjoys those rights. Everyone also gets to call group B assholes, though, for trying to shit on group C.
In any case, I’d call the US uncivilized. I don’t think that’s particularly racist, in the same way it would be if I called South Africa uncivilized , or something. It kind of depends on the reason and way I’m using it.
I think the US is uncivilized because kids are going to school hungry and not being fed because some asshole in Texas thinks feeding kids is bad.
I’d need to know the context here, but from what I’m seeing, yeah, that person was racist.
I agree with you substantially.
But just very recently there was a story in Germany where a male elementary school teacher revealed that he was gay. Many of his students were Muslims who were taught to hate gay people and now refused to respect him in various ways (including refusing to go to his classes).
Who is the “oppressed group” here?
Being oppressed for one facet of your identity doesn’t stop people from being bigots.
cf TERFs, most of whom are women. They’re victims of misogyny, but they’re also perpetrators of transmisogyny.
There are no groups in that anecdote, only individuals. Shitty individuals discriminating against someone for an attribute he can’t change. But belief in religion is voluntary.
Belief in religion is not at all voluntary in some places. At least lip service, while still going through all the motions.